Talk:Seed Maker - Revision history

imported>Nomenclature2357: warding -> wording :flushed:

2025-03-15T03:56:01Z

warding -> wording :flushed:

← Older revision		Revision as of 03:56, 15 March 2025
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	:::That is what my in-game testing seems to indicate, yes. Thanks for taking the time to check. [[User:Mr Qi\|Mr Qi]] ([[User talk:Mr Qi\|talk]]) 15:23, 4 September 2024 (UTC)		:::That is what my in-game testing seems to indicate, yes. Thanks for taking the time to check. [[User:Mr Qi\|Mr Qi]] ([[User talk:Mr Qi\|talk]]) 15:23, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

	::::I don't suppose you folks will mind if I tweak the ~~warding~~ on the page about this to make it clear that pseudo-random numbers are involved and 'normal' gameplay is not affected in a way noticeable to the player. [[User:Nomenclature2357\|Nomenclature2357]] ([[User talk:Nomenclature2357\|talk]]) 03:36, 15 March 2025 (UTC)		::::I don't suppose you folks will mind if I tweak the wording on the page about this to make it clear that pseudo-random numbers are involved and 'normal' gameplay is not affected in a way noticeable to the player. [[User:Nomenclature2357\|Nomenclature2357]] ([[User talk:Nomenclature2357\|talk]]) 03:36, 15 March 2025 (UTC)

imported>Nomenclature2357: effected -> affected

2025-03-15T03:38:21Z

effected -> affected

← Older revision		Revision as of 03:38, 15 March 2025
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	:::That is what my in-game testing seems to indicate, yes. Thanks for taking the time to check. [[User:Mr Qi\|Mr Qi]] ([[User talk:Mr Qi\|talk]]) 15:23, 4 September 2024 (UTC)		:::That is what my in-game testing seems to indicate, yes. Thanks for taking the time to check. [[User:Mr Qi\|Mr Qi]] ([[User talk:Mr Qi\|talk]]) 15:23, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

	::::I don't suppose you folks will mind if I tweak the warding on the page about this to make it clear that pseudo-random numbers are involved and 'normal' gameplay is not ~~effected~~ in a way noticeable to the player. [[User:Nomenclature2357\|Nomenclature2357]] ([[User talk:Nomenclature2357\|talk]]) 03:36, 15 March 2025 (UTC)		::::I don't suppose you folks will mind if I tweak the warding on the page about this to make it clear that pseudo-random numbers are involved and 'normal' gameplay is not affected in a way noticeable to the player. [[User:Nomenclature2357\|Nomenclature2357]] ([[User talk:Nomenclature2357\|talk]]) 03:36, 15 March 2025 (UTC)

imported>Nomenclature2357 at 03:36, 15 March 2025

2025-03-15T03:36:43Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 03:36, 15 March 2025
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	::I took a look at the 1.6.9 beta code and it appears the Seed Maker outputs are still determined based on time and location. For now, at least. [[User:User314159\|User314159]] ([[User talk:User314159\|talk]]) 03:13, 3 September 2024 (UTC)		::I took a look at the 1.6.9 beta code and it appears the Seed Maker outputs are still determined based on time and location. For now, at least. [[User:User314159\|User314159]] ([[User talk:User314159\|talk]]) 03:13, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
	:::That is what my in-game testing seems to indicate, yes. Thanks for taking the time to check. [[User:Mr Qi\|Mr Qi]] ([[User talk:Mr Qi\|talk]]) 15:23, 4 September 2024 (UTC)		:::That is what my in-game testing seems to indicate, yes. Thanks for taking the time to check. [[User:Mr Qi\|Mr Qi]] ([[User talk:Mr Qi\|talk]]) 15:23, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

			::::I don't suppose you folks will mind if I tweak the warding on the page about this to make it clear that pseudo-random numbers are involved and 'normal' gameplay is not effected in a way noticeable to the player. [[User:Nomenclature2357\|Nomenclature2357]] ([[User talk:Nomenclature2357\|talk]]) 03:36, 15 March 2025 (UTC)

imported>Margotbean: +external links from User:Mr Qi

2024-09-05T17:18:17Z

+external links from User:Mr Qi

← Older revision		Revision as of 17:18, 5 September 2024
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	Therefore:		Therefore:

	* P(A) = 0.004<~~SPAN STYLE~~="text-decoration:overline">9</~~SPAN~~> (from the source code)		* P(A) = 0.004<span style="text-decoration: overline;">9</span> (from the source code)
	* P(¬A) = 1 - P(A) = 0.995		* P(¬A) = [https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=1-0.00499... 1 - P(A) = 0.995]
	* P(B) = 0.01<~~SPAN STYLE~~="text-decoration:overline">9</~~SPAN~~> (from the source code)		* P(B) = 0.01<span style="text-decoration: overline;">9</span> (from the source code)
	* P(¬B) = 1 - P(B) = 0.98		* P(¬B) = [https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=1-0.0199... 1 - P(B) = 0.98]
	* P(¬A ⋂ B) = P(¬A) * P(B) = 0.995 * 0.01<~~SPAN STYLE~~="text-decoration:overline">9</~~SPAN~~> = 0.0199		* P(¬A ⋂ B) = P(¬A) * P(B) = [https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=0.995++0.0199... 0.995 0.01<span style="text-decoration: overline;">9</span>] = 0.0199
	* P(¬A ⋂ ¬B) = P(¬A) * P(¬B) = 0.995 * 0.98 = 0.9751		* P(¬A ⋂ ¬B) = P(¬A) * P(¬B) = 0.995 * 0.98 = 0.9751

imported>Mr Qi: Typo

2024-09-04T15:28:48Z

Typo

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:28, 4 September 2024
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	* Seeds of the original input (D): ¬A ⋂ ¬B (not A and not B)		* Seeds of the original input (D): ¬A ⋂ ¬B (not A and not B)

	Since the events are, as we have determined, ~~independent~~, P(x ⋂ y) = P(x) * P(y).		Since the events are, as we have determined, independents, P(x ⋂ y) = P(x) * P(y).

	Therefore:		Therefore:

imported>Mr Qi at 15:23, 4 September 2024

2024-09-04T15:23:59Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:23, 4 September 2024
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	:I appreciate your thorough research into this topic! Thank you! [[User:Margotbean\|margotbean]] ([[User talk:Margotbean\|talk]]) 02:31, 3 September 2024 (UTC)		:I appreciate your thorough research into this topic! Thank you! [[User:Margotbean\|margotbean]] ([[User talk:Margotbean\|talk]]) 02:31, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

	:: Thank you Margotbean! I was unaware that the spam filter was triggered by the size of the page; I thought it was caused by the type of edit (new page). Thanks for the heads up!		:: Thank you Margotbean! I was unaware that the spam filter was triggered by the size of the page; I thought it was caused by the type of edit (new page). Thanks for the heads up! [[User:Mr Qi\|Mr Qi]] ([[User talk:Mr Qi\|talk]]) 15:23, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

	::I took a look at the 1.6.9 beta code and it appears the Seed Maker outputs are still determined based on time and location. For now, at least. [[User:User314159\|User314159]] ([[User talk:User314159\|talk]]) 03:13, 3 September 2024 (UTC)		::I took a look at the 1.6.9 beta code and it appears the Seed Maker outputs are still determined based on time and location. For now, at least. [[User:User314159\|User314159]] ([[User talk:User314159\|talk]]) 03:13, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
	:::That is what my in-game testing seems to indicate, yes. Thanks for taking the time to check. [[User:Mr Qi\|Mr Qi]] ([[User talk:Mr Qi\|talk]]) 15:23, 4 September 2024 (UTC)		:::That is what my in-game testing seems to indicate, yes. Thanks for taking the time to check. [[User:Mr Qi\|Mr Qi]] ([[User talk:Mr Qi\|talk]]) 15:23, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

imported>Mr Qi at 15:23, 4 September 2024

2024-09-04T15:23:42Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:23, 4 September 2024
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	:#Version 1.6.9 is coming soon™ and it may change the exploit behavior seen in v1.6.8. Twice now, the v1.6.9 changelog has said "almost a complete rewrite of the game code". '''Twice'''! So, I'm not keeping up with it until it's finalized. When it is, we can reevaluate Seed Maker behavior.		:#Version 1.6.9 is coming soon™ and it may change the exploit behavior seen in v1.6.8. Twice now, the v1.6.9 changelog has said "almost a complete rewrite of the game code". '''Twice'''! So, I'm not keeping up with it until it's finalized. When it is, we can reevaluate Seed Maker behavior.
	:I appreciate your thorough research into this topic! Thank you! [[User:Margotbean\|margotbean]] ([[User talk:Margotbean\|talk]]) 02:31, 3 September 2024 (UTC)		:I appreciate your thorough research into this topic! Thank you! [[User:Margotbean\|margotbean]] ([[User talk:Margotbean\|talk]]) 02:31, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

			:: Thank you Margotbean! I was unaware that the spam filter was triggered by the size of the page; I thought it was caused by the type of edit (new page). Thanks for the heads up!

	::I took a look at the 1.6.9 beta code and it appears the Seed Maker outputs are still determined based on time and location. For now, at least. [[User:User314159\|User314159]] ([[User talk:User314159\|talk]]) 03:13, 3 September 2024 (UTC)		::I took a look at the 1.6.9 beta code and it appears the Seed Maker outputs are still determined based on time and location. For now, at least. [[User:User314159\|User314159]] ([[User talk:User314159\|talk]]) 03:13, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
			:::That is what my in-game testing seems to indicate, yes. Thanks for taking the time to check. [[User:Mr Qi\|Mr Qi]] ([[User talk:Mr Qi\|talk]]) 15:23, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

imported>User314159 at 03:13, 3 September 2024

2024-09-03T03:13:08Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 03:13, 3 September 2024
Line 98:		Line 98:
	:#Version 1.6.9 is coming soon™ and it may change the exploit behavior seen in v1.6.8. Twice now, the v1.6.9 changelog has said "almost a complete rewrite of the game code". '''Twice'''! So, I'm not keeping up with it until it's finalized. When it is, we can reevaluate Seed Maker behavior.		:#Version 1.6.9 is coming soon™ and it may change the exploit behavior seen in v1.6.8. Twice now, the v1.6.9 changelog has said "almost a complete rewrite of the game code". '''Twice'''! So, I'm not keeping up with it until it's finalized. When it is, we can reevaluate Seed Maker behavior.
	:I appreciate your thorough research into this topic! Thank you! [[User:Margotbean\|margotbean]] ([[User talk:Margotbean\|talk]]) 02:31, 3 September 2024 (UTC)		:I appreciate your thorough research into this topic! Thank you! [[User:Margotbean\|margotbean]] ([[User talk:Margotbean\|talk]]) 02:31, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

			::I took a look at the 1.6.9 beta code and it appears the Seed Maker outputs are still determined based on time and location. For now, at least. [[User:User314159\|User314159]] ([[User talk:User314159\|talk]]) 03:13, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

imported>Margotbean at 02:31, 3 September 2024

2024-09-03T02:31:13Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 02:31, 3 September 2024
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	Without this, said exploit will ''always'' consistently work.		Without this, said exploit will ''always'' consistently work.
	--[[User:Mr Qi\|Mr Qi]] ([[User talk:Mr Qi\|talk]]) 20:52, 2 September 2, 2024		--[[User:Mr Qi\|Mr Qi]] ([[User talk:Mr Qi\|talk]]) 20:52, 2 September 2, 2024

			:Thank you, Mr Qi! I have 2 comments:
			:#In the future, you can make large edits in smaller chunks, saving in-between, to avoid the "mass edit by new user" spam filter.
			:#Version 1.6.9 is coming soon™ and it may change the exploit behavior seen in v1.6.8. Twice now, the v1.6.9 changelog has said "almost a complete rewrite of the game code". '''Twice'''! So, I'm not keeping up with it until it's finalized. When it is, we can reevaluate Seed Maker behavior.
			:I appreciate your thorough research into this topic! Thank you! [[User:Margotbean\|margotbean]] ([[User talk:Margotbean\|talk]]) 02:31, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

imported>Margotbean: Comment from User:Mr Qi caught in mass edit filter

2024-09-03T02:23:49Z

Comment from User:Mr Qi caught in mass edit filter

New page

{{Talkheader}}
== On the seed maker probabilities and the corrections to prevent PRNG exploits ==

This discussion page was created in an attempt to prevent subsequent confused edits of the Seed Maker PRNG probabilities.

=== Seed maker probabilities ===

{{ collapse
|Note about the mathematical notations
|content = <ul><li>A range denoted by [x, y] means "from x, included, to y, included", while a range denoted by [x, y[ means "from x, included, to y, not included". This singularity is relevant since the latter notation is used in the pseudocode, to better reflect the original code (and the way C# handles random number generation).</li><li>An overline over numerals is called a ''vinculum'', and is used to denote ''repeating digits''.</li></ul>
|css = border: 1px solid #3ba4f9; background: #8ac6f7; width: 100%;
}}

The code, from 1.5.4, translated in pseudocode (to avoid copyright infringement), with lines relevant to the Seed Maker output highlighted, is as follows:

<syntaxhighlight lang="md" line highlight="2,4,5">
Get PRNG initialized with: In-game days played, unique ID for that game, seed maker location (X), seed maker location (Y), in-game time of day. *All the random numbers in the rest of this pseudocode are from this PRNG*
Generate new "seeds" object of the correct seeds type (for the object initially inserted in the maker) with an integer random quantity in [1, 4[.
If the `performObjectDropInAction` was called with `probe == true`, return true.
Get a float number (in [0, 1[), if that number is in [0, 0.005[, replace the seeds object from (2) by one "Ancient Seeds".
If the float number from (4) is in [0.005, 1[, get a second float number (in [0, 1[), if that new number is in [0, 0.02[, replace the seeds object from (2) by "Mixed Seeds" with an integer random quantity in [1, 5[.
Set the action delay to 20 in-game minutes.
Play the sound "Ship".
Set the sound "DirtyHit" to be played after 250ms.
Return true.
</syntaxhighlight>

As one can see from this pseudocode, there are three events:

# Generation of the "correct" seeds with a random quantity (step 2).
# Probabilistic event of replacing the seeds with "Ancient Seeds" (step 4).
# Probabilistic event of replacing the seeds with "Mixed Seeds" (step 5).

The first event is always happening, and is the "default outcome" should no probability-dependent event happen.

The second and third events are probabilistic events, therefore it is important to determine if they are dependent or independent, and if they are mutually exclusive.

==== Event dependency ====

Because the PRNG shall be assumed to make the random numbers as independent as possible, the values are not related in any meaningful way, and so, the probabilistic events are independent.

==== Event mutual exclusion ====

The fact that the second event only occurs depending on the outcome of the first ''does not make the values dependent'', but it makes the events mutually exclusive (the second event cannot occur at the same time as the first).

==== Probabilities computation ====

Let P(x) be the probability of any x.

Let A be the variable name for the first probabilistic event.

Let B be the variable name for the second probabilistic event.

Let D be the variable name for the default event.

B is only evaluated if A does not happen, so B is only evaluated if ¬A (not A).

Therefore, the outcome of the Seed Maker is:

* Ancient Seeds (A): A
* Mixed Seeds (B): ¬A ⋂ B (not A and B)
* Seeds of the original input (D): ¬A ⋂ ¬B (not A and not B)

Since the events are, as we have determined, independent, P(x ⋂ y) = P(x) * P(y).

Therefore:

* P(A) = 0.0049 (from the source code)
* P(¬A) = 1 - P(A) = 0.995
* P(B) = 0.019 (from the source code)
* P(¬B) = 1 - P(B) = 0.98
* P(¬A ⋂ B) = P(¬A) * P(B) = 0.995 * 0.019 = 0.0199
* P(¬A ⋂ ¬B) = P(¬A) * P(¬B) = 0.995 * 0.98 = 0.9751

==== Outcome ====

As we can see from the computation, here are the following probabilities:

* Ancient Seeds (A): 0.0049
* Mixed Seeds (B): 0.0199
* Seeds of the original input (D): 0.9751

=== Corrections to prevent exploits ===

According to the [https://stardewvalleywiki.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=Seed_Maker&oldid=171247 16:43, 22 May 2024‎] edit of the [[Seed Maker]] page:

{{Quote|Seed Maker output exploits were removed in 1.6. I'm not sure if they were kept in with Legacy RNG though, that will have to be tested later.|[[User:User314159|User314159]]}}

I do not readily have access to the source of the game for any version newer than 1.5.4, so I cannot confirm this with the source code; but I can confirm that the behavior in the game from the version 1.6.8 is inconsistent with this statement. It is indeed still very possible to reproduce the output of the Seed Maker on a given day, given location, and given time. I tried several times, it worked every single time, perfectly.

In order for the "reloading exploit" to be mitigated, the PRNG seeding would have to be done with the introduction of an externally changing variable (such as the current "real world" time, or a modulo thereof, etc).

Without this, said exploit will ''always'' consistently work.
--[[User:Mr Qi|Mr Qi]] ([[User talk:Mr Qi|talk]]) 20:52, 2 September 2, 2024

← Older revision		Revision as of 03:36, 15 March 2025
Line 103:		Line 103:
	::I took a look at the 1.6.9 beta code and it appears the Seed Maker outputs are still determined based on time and location. For now, at least. [[User:User314159\|User314159]] ([[User talk:User314159\|talk]]) 03:13, 3 September 2024 (UTC)		::I took a look at the 1.6.9 beta code and it appears the Seed Maker outputs are still determined based on time and location. For now, at least. [[User:User314159\|User314159]] ([[User talk:User314159\|talk]]) 03:13, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
	:::That is what my in-game testing seems to indicate, yes. Thanks for taking the time to check. [[User:Mr Qi\|Mr Qi]] ([[User talk:Mr Qi\|talk]]) 15:23, 4 September 2024 (UTC)		:::That is what my in-game testing seems to indicate, yes. Thanks for taking the time to check. [[User:Mr Qi\|Mr Qi]] ([[User talk:Mr Qi\|talk]]) 15:23, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

			::::I don't suppose you folks will mind if I tweak the warding on the page about this to make it clear that pseudo-random numbers are involved and 'normal' gameplay is not effected in a way noticeable to the player. [[User:Nomenclature2357\|Nomenclature2357]] ([[User talk:Nomenclature2357\|talk]]) 03:36, 15 March 2025 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:23, 4 September 2024
Line 99:		Line 99:
	:I appreciate your thorough research into this topic! Thank you! [[User:Margotbean\|margotbean]] ([[User talk:Margotbean\|talk]]) 02:31, 3 September 2024 (UTC)		:I appreciate your thorough research into this topic! Thank you! [[User:Margotbean\|margotbean]] ([[User talk:Margotbean\|talk]]) 02:31, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

	:: Thank you Margotbean! I was unaware that the spam filter was triggered by the size of the page; I thought it was caused by the type of edit (new page). Thanks for the heads up!		:: Thank you Margotbean! I was unaware that the spam filter was triggered by the size of the page; I thought it was caused by the type of edit (new page). Thanks for the heads up! [[User:Mr Qi\|Mr Qi]] ([[User talk:Mr Qi\|talk]]) 15:23, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

	::I took a look at the 1.6.9 beta code and it appears the Seed Maker outputs are still determined based on time and location. For now, at least. [[User:User314159\|User314159]] ([[User talk:User314159\|talk]]) 03:13, 3 September 2024 (UTC)		::I took a look at the 1.6.9 beta code and it appears the Seed Maker outputs are still determined based on time and location. For now, at least. [[User:User314159\|User314159]] ([[User talk:User314159\|talk]]) 03:13, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
	:::That is what my in-game testing seems to indicate, yes. Thanks for taking the time to check. [[User:Mr Qi\|Mr Qi]] ([[User talk:Mr Qi\|talk]]) 15:23, 4 September 2024 (UTC)		:::That is what my in-game testing seems to indicate, yes. Thanks for taking the time to check. [[User:Mr Qi\|Mr Qi]] ([[User talk:Mr Qi\|talk]]) 15:23, 4 September 2024 (UTC)